Curse

leguma · Jan 01, 2007, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

old players paid the game already so why care about them?. new players = additional revenue. the more new players pleased, the more money received. the more you discourage and frustrate your new players, the more you lose $$ over time.

whereas in pay to play system, it's the old players who are giving the constant supply of $$. and last time i check, Guild Wars is not pay to play.

Very true, however, there is a limit to how much you can cater to new people. Driving the old and dedicated players away will dp nothing but shop of the upper tier of the competitive play and leave nothing but the low and middle tier, at which point it becomes pretty much nothing more than a scrub-fest that is similar to the Hero-way period that we are just coming out of, and I think everyone has a pretty clear idea how good that was.

Furthermore, there are two kinds of new players. There are the sensible, inteligent ones that realize that they simply hve no experience and that simply play and concentrate on playing. Then there are the people that want a shiny emote that they can spam when in PvE, who whine in public chat and on forums that they get beat by teams that have hundreds of hours more experience than them, and that they cannot make a group.

It is perfectly normal and desirable for A.net to cater to the first kind of new players, but the second kind is pretty much the equivalent of people standing around in LA PLZPLZing for 10 gold so that they can make new armor. This group should and MUST be ignored because they are out for one thing only, to get a fast, cheap, easy emote.

tacitus · Jan 01, 2007, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

what's the point of having their boxes displayed in Best Buy, Compusa, etc then if a lot of the new players are all friends of existing players (other than maybe the friend wants to buy the boxed item coz he wants to collect the game release boxes or they don't have or don't wanna use their CC)?

ok the boxes themselves are a side issue it doesnt matter if they buy the game in a store or straight of the net.

and really why have the boxes displayed in best buy? Any business like this selling a game and expansion packs needs to keep new players coming and keep old players interested so they buy the new expansion packs. This includes best buy sections amongst lots of other marketing gimmicks. Word of mouth is a good way to keep the game selling, but it shouldnt be used on its own and im not saying its the only way to sell. However the point i made before was they cant ignore people with the game because we have already bought it is rubbish.

anet need existing players to keep buying new expansions as they come out yes they got cash off me and you but as you say there is no fee they must keep the interest of existing players so people buy the updates

Orphan Anthem · Jan 02, 2007, 04:31 AM // 04:31

8v8 is a given on how we can please the older players and people who left HA any idea's on new players or possable ways to get new players? Simply saying tough let them deal with it like we had to isnt enough.

Comrade-Joe · Jan 02, 2007, 05:32 AM // 05:32

Id like 8v8 back becouse 1. more fun becouse you dont really know whats going to happen and its very exciting 2. more people in the team so you can bring more friends stead of excluding em. 3. more diverse builds imo. overall more fun

keke_ · Jan 02, 2007, 05:32 AM // 05:32

change back to 8 vs 8

8 vs 8 was accually FUN while 6 vs 6

you get more builds with 8 vs 8 while in 6 vs 6 you only fight necro degen necro spirits and sandstorm wow how fun..

while everyone says omfg it'll bring iway and bloodspike back its not any worse than the meta now.

so many more poeple will play HA if its accually 8 vs 8 and for the poeple that say if you want 8 vs 8 go play gvg, you cant even compare the two.

BRING BACK 8V8

Apok Omen · Jan 02, 2007, 06:19 AM // 06:19

Off-topic:Orphan, we already have given you several reasons as to why there is no need to find out ways to help newer players.

I respect that you are trying to help the underdog by standing up for them, but you refuse to listen and take in our suggestions. It seems that you are stuck on taking Rank out of the picture, or just resetting rank, but it will just be like studying very hard to get into better schools and ending up in a great college, then having the scholarship taken away from you because the lazy/ less-intelligent people can't get into a good school.

On-topic: We have said many times in this and hundred other HA threads to restore HA to what it was and why, so I don't think that we need to say it anymore. Maybe we can bring other helpful suggestions to the table instead of the usual ''BRING BACK 8V8, RAWR!!''. Now, I don't have any suggestions, but hopefully others will.

Shendaar · Jan 02, 2007, 07:09 AM // 07:09

HA doesn't make any sense because random pug group can be sent fighting against the best groups instantly. In GvG, the game at least tries to have you fight a guild with similar rank(not always the case though).

In any competitive sport, you don't see novices going up against pros very often now do you? I think HA should be no different. The learning curve has to be made smoother and more attractive to new player and there is no need to remove/modify fame to achieve that goal. There is no reason not to agree to this because it makes sense and anyone that does not is probably just upset that new players could have it easier than they did.

Messner · Jan 02, 2007, 07:11 AM // 07:11

I wrote a roughly one page letter when 6v6 was originally announced which refuted the decision to change based on the evidence I assumed led to such a change/proposal. Only recently did I actually see what the alleged reasons for the 6v6 change were and just as I had assumed, a big bulk of support came from the preview event's positive response.

In my letter which was probably never read, I explained the two possible reasons for increased participation in HA during that preview event:

I. Double Fame.
II. New 6v6 Format.

I don't want to make this complicated and discourage whoever may be reading this from following my point, but it is a basic statistical principle that you cannot accurately interpret results while testing multiple variables. To say that many people participated in the event makes it a success is fine. But to say that it was popular because of the 6v6 format is nothing short of ignorant. It's the simple concept of a confounding variable, meaning that you cannot attribute outcomes to specific controls unless all else is equal.

I want to make an exaggerated example so the point is clear.

Let's use sports, for one day and one day only if you go to watch the St. Louis Cardinals play a pee wee baseball team, every fan in attendance gets $1,000,000. After selling out the stands, Major League Baseball decides that they will begin scheduling every team against pee wee baseball players because it was popular. Before you know it, nobody gives a rat's ass about MLB in the exact same way that nobody really cares about HA anymore.

There are two main groups still playing HA, the casual rank 9/10/11's looking for their rank 12 (and Leeloof/Sama who have apparently given up altogether on their quest for the phone number of someone of the opposite sex) and the formerly unranked players who used and abused another instance of ignorance on ANet's part through searing flames and the use of heroes which allowed equally incompetent groups to gain fame off of each other, those players now defining the rank 2/3/4/5/6 overflow in HA.

So in the end, my vote is 8v8 especially when we look at the flop of 6v6. What little success 6v6 did have post NF is primarily attributed to the use of Heroes.

Kratos Angel · Jan 02, 2007, 09:10 AM // 09:10

I totally agree with Messner, especially on the point of guys overusing seraing flames and heroes to get r3 and still be totally noob.

Julen · Jan 02, 2007, 11:21 AM // 11:21

I dont see why new players should get more help then they are currently receiving.

There are 2 low end pvp arena's (RA and HvH), then there is Team arena's which is a great step towards competitive play in HA.

For HA you have observer mode, which helps both new and experienced players out alot.

You got heroes for when you cant fill your team with real players and who are, in the case of new players, often better at their job then their human counterparts.

Now you have 6v6 as well to make your team building faster so you dont have to wait for ages. Now you get the chance to actually play more and therefore learn more.

Yet, the only thing i see is those unranked people still complaining. I really dont get it. I think you guys allready have it alot more easy then "we" did, over a year ago. Just play the darn game will ye!

As a result of all those "new-player-friendly changes" i think the actual quality of players has gone downhill at an alarming rate. We recently recruited over 20 people ranging from r4 up to r8 as we were looking for a few extra people for this gvg season. Out of those 20 only 1 guy proved to be a decent player. Ironically he was the r4 guy. (We are an r9+ guild btw so saying its impossible to get into a decent team when low ranked is bs, as i know several people who dont mind taking the occasional low rank guy)

The point im trying to make is that, in order to keep the competition at a decent level, devs dont allways have to listen to the new players. You need to listen to your veteran players as well, as they know the game better, and they will probably be more able to think of possible improvements.

KaeTheFair · Jan 02, 2007, 04:14 PM // 16:14

I've tried to read through the suggestions that have been made, as I don't want to duplicate them.

I've recently come back to playing Guild Wars after a break of a few months, and have been trying the new Heroes' Ascent after practising in Random Arenas for a while. From this perspective, I have to say that the atmosphere in HA has changed completely. It's no longer the exciting, challenging, tough place that it used to be. Instead, it feels dead; there aren't even a tenth of the people that there used to be, and they are generally forming one of three builds. Now, I played through the heyday of IWAY, and I know that flavour of the month builds are nothing new, but they could always be beaten by a good balance build. Balance builds just don't work anymore, because you can't make a reasonably balanced team with six people. You have to prioritise offense or defense, and, well, defense seems to be the order of the day, which doesn't make for madly exciting play.

So, my proposals for A.net are as follows:

1) If you feel that 6v6 serves a purpose in providing a step up from TA and teaching new people how to play, then keep it. Just bring back 8v8 for the rest of us in a separate location. I don't see why this is an either/or situation, and why we can't have both.

2) If new people are complaining about rank requirements that mean they can't get get groups, why not make 8v8 an arena that is only accessible after you hit rank 3, which is generally when you can get ranked groups easily? That way, ranks 0-2 would be in a basic arena where they could learn skills, get groups among their levels, and would have an incentive to play.

That said, I'm not that sympathetic to those complaints. I started out at rank 0 like everyone else, and have moved up to midway to rank 4 through hard work, perseverance and a lot of losses. I've played with my guild and friends some of the time, but most of that was pure PUGging. I still can't get into rank 5-9 teams, but I'm not whining about it.

3) HA is getting stale, because it essentially contains the same maps in the same sequence that it did when I first bought Prophecies. Why not introduce some new maps and some new game modes? What about some arenas involving capturing the flag or holding multiple points or protecting a certain NPC, or even revolving around completing an objective as in Factions? If PvP is Guild Wars' "end-game" and major selling point, it needs to have more attention put into it. New maps for HA should be appearing on a regular basis, just as in RA or GvG. That's not to say the old ones should go; the more variety the better! That would keep the game fresh, and also prevent builds that are designed to exploit a particular set of maps from being too dominant.

4) HA needs some more incentives to get people playing it. How about being able to access certain PvP-only armours or weapons at certain rank levels? They could have unique, cool-looking skins, rather than special stats. I still think it's weird that's only available in PvE when GW's end-game is meant to be its PvP. Alternatively, how about being able to upgrade your guild halls with decorations and other fun stuff with points you earn from playing?

Bacon Goes Monk · Jan 02, 2007, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julen

I dont see why new players should get more help then they are currently receiving.

Anet's practically GIVING them free fame.

Quote:

Yet, the only thing i see is those unranked people still complaining. I really dont get it. I think you guys allready have it alot more easy then "we" did, over a year ago. Just play the darn game will ye!

Apparently its easier for them to whine and moan to get what they want instead of playing.

Quote:

As a result of all those "new-player-friendly changes" i think the actual quality of players has gone downhill at an alarming rate. We recently recruited over 20 people ranging from r4 up to r8 as we were looking for a few extra people for this gvg season. Out of those 20 only 1 guy proved to be a decent player. Ironically he was the r4 guy. (We are an r9+ guild btw so saying its impossible to get into a decent team when low ranked is bs, as i know several people who dont mind taking the occasional low rank guy)

Lucky you. Everyone we've played with outside our guild under r7 didn't even have the skills we needed.

Quote:

The point im trying to make is that, in order to keep the competition at a decent level, devs dont allways have to listen to the new players. You need to listen to your veteran players as well, as they know the game better, and they will probably be more able to think of possible improvements.

But why should they care about us? They already got our money. Its the new people they're trying to cater to. Please the new people -> they stay -> they buy more -> anet makes more $$$.

Julen · Jan 02, 2007, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bacon Goes Monk

But why should they care about us? They already got our money. Its the new people they're trying to cater to. Please the new people -> they stay -> they buy more -> anet makes more $$$.

If they keep us happy, we buy the stupid expansions as well, its not just the new guys that do. But you are probably right indeed. i didnt see no TV commercials for prophecy's and Factions, but i did for Nightfall. So clearly they must be aiming for new people.

Still no reason to ignore your most loyal customers though...

Lifeinthefridge · Jan 02, 2007, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orphan Anthem

Yes 6v6 did have a very negative/possative effect on the game and im sure they had been a million posts about this. Increased chest drops would effect only the top 10% of players that means you havent adressed 90% of HA

your 3rd point is completly valad, but if we find a NEW thing for those players to shoot for maybe it would balance out. Fame as of now is just a measuring stick. Mostly a measurment of how much IWAY you've played.

What do you think is the best option for bringing new players into the game and keeping the old ones?

My purpose of a fame whipe isnt to piss off players but to clear the way of a new messurment system of who gets to play in the seasonal HA tournament.

Hopes of something new would to be to bring back all those old people who left. And lets face it when people hear OO SOMETHINGS NEW thatsection of the game automaticly gets a boost.

Ok first of all please anet don't wipe fame and listen to this guy he is obvoiusly a new player rank 3 or lower listen to the old HA vetrans that remain first of all right of the bat if you removed fame you would just kill the game like this is no joke DO NOT DO THIS IM NOT SURE IF SOMEBODY ON SOME FORUM SUGGESTED 6V6 so this is why im taking his post seriously not that he has any real ideas that could solve HA

Ive Been tombing for 12 months with thousands of hours have played almost every build in every meta and I can say that either way people are going to complain about builds , but obviously skills need to be balanced and nerfed because with 10 proffessions it really starts to get complicated. First of all 8v8 needs to come back one. More incentives for playing HA need to be added like a static price for sigils. Medallion rewards for wins mabye and new map objectives need to be added to HA I believe Galie should make a seperate thread for this idea as well for map objectives but please no Alter control point Alliance Battle/HvH control crap that concept is flawed and boring. Every Type of PvP needs an incentive to play and thats what really has contributed to HA's demise besides 6v6

ALSO Arena Net needs to hire Alpha Testers for Heroes Ascent besides PvE and gvgers this is getting ridiculous im starting to think alpha testers dont even do anything or even care...with all the stupid bugs and easy to spot things that get exploited and Izzy's forum proposing for skills on a thread he thinks should be balanced then alpha testers input is crap. The GvGers and PvPers there don't know obviously what there talking about or the few HA players they might have thier are getting ignored, but it shows how great they are when the leak something of how the system that they nerf skills is.
Proposes for skill nerfs might as well be put on guildwars.com and have a forum there

Zeldawind · Jan 02, 2007, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julen

If they keep us happy, we buy the stupid expansions as well, its not just the new guys that do. But you are probably right indeed. i didnt see no TV commercials for prophecy's and Factions, but i did for Nightfall. So clearly they must be aiming for new people.

Still no reason to ignore your most loyal customers though...

Hmm there was a commercial for factions though but proph hmm dont think so although i heard about guildwars in a other game and now im wasting here over 1,5 year in this game now

although im at the edge of quitting whit GW now cuz well it's getting really stagnant for me.

Detraya fullvear · Jan 02, 2007, 11:21 PM // 23:21

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